No other commercial passenger airplane has similar software; rather, they fly level without it because their physical designs adhere to fundamental aerodynamic principles. I wish the racism card would not be played so often, either for or against the two accident crews, as it obscures the realities of foreign operators. Strange to tell, that for a very swept wing and moderately unstable beast like the 707, it did not have any Angle of Attack indication for the crew and most of us were taught recovery from unusual attitudes should still revolve around needle, ball & airspeed with a good look at one of three horizons to determine which was the odd one out. Some will argue that the MAX is now the most scrutinized airliner in modern history and well, it ought to be. To this weeks Would You Fly a 737 MAX Now?, I answered an unconsidered yes. When I was constructing the poll, I also segregated the same question limited to airline pilots. The carrier has a head start in meeting the AD requirements. This violates a basic tenet of certification gospel: aircraft must be naturally stable throughout the flight envelope. Alaska Airlines and United Airlines, meanwhile, are eyeing a first quarter 2021 reentry, while Southwest doesnt expect to reintroduce the MAX before the second quarter of 2021, according to Kelly, who assured that he will fly the MAX before Southwest returns it to service. This caused the first (Lion Air) crash. If you come from a culture which understands that mechanical devices will kill without warning because of an underlying problem then you will understand it is your job to stop the disaster before it can go further. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Yes, I would certainly fly in one again. They only need to know that one of them is wrong, which means that the MCAS routine should not be employed. The cynics definition of cynicism is that its the smoke that curls up from burned dreams. If within Boeing there was a lack of information sharing, how on earth would anyone expect the pilots driving it to then have the full picture? In recent months Continue Reading Not unless there was no option, and not before it has flown around uneventfully for several years. To address the unsafe conditions that led to the grounding of the MAX in the first place, the FAA has issued an Airworthiness Directive that outlines various required design and training changes for operators, including key alterations to theManeuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law that played a central role in the 29 October 2018 crash of Lion Air flight 610, which killed 189 people, and the 10 March 2019 crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, which killed 157 people. And then how many fewer people will notice at the airport and decide not to board the plane (or will get off once onboard). 2 mo. Singapore Airlines just don't want you to know that it's a 'MAX' with all the safety baggage that monicker now carries. After the accidents and issues with the plane, including MCAS, came to light, would you have flown on the 737 Max as a passenger if it hadn't gone through a new round of certification with the attendant design and training changes? Regular Budget Travellers - any point to collect tier points? The follow-up question was, " If no, how long would you wait before flying a Boeing 737 MAX again?". Thats the real world Boeing is selling airplanes into and not the one we all wish existed or we imagine is even plausible. The Air France 447 crash and the Tesla Harry Potter beheading are example of when the operator does not not understand his place in the chain of events. Would you fly on a 737 MAX in the next year, assuming the airline, fare, and schedule are acceptable? The oft-cited reasons for their hesitation include fears about the airworthiness of the type and a broader lack of trust in Boeing, after a string of shocking email and chat exchanges revealed a corporate culture problem at the US airframer. After cutting her teeth at a weekly world Read More, 2014-2022 Runway Girl Network | Kirby Media Group, Public will have 45 days to comment on proposed 737 MAX changes, Podcast 071: Coronavirus and MAX grounding level one-two punch, Airlines deferring cabin upgrades as 737 MAX grounding drags on, Airlines get better at retaining loyal passengers under MAX grounding, Breeze Airways founder Neeleman: Im not afraid to fly the MAX, Air Canada counting on safe return of the MAX for fleet renewal, MAX grounding shows aviation must nurture its corporate Cassandras, Podcast 068: Mulling MAX re-entry as Dickson takes the helm at FAA, PaxEx stakeholders detail impact of Boeing 737 MAX grounding, Press Release: ABC International delivers cabin crests to Japan Airlines, Press Release: OneWeb emerges from Chapter 11, announces new CEO, Will you fly the 737 MAX? The questioner seems to imply that the computers need to know which AOA signal is correct. According to a poll from UBS Group, 70% of passengers would hesitate to book a flight on the 737 MAX. What are your feelings about being a passenger on one? Im a subscriber. No way would I fly in that unstable airframe. From recollection, the FAA followed the Canadians into self certification and more hands-off from the certification process; then Boeing became ever more self-important. Besides, Covid-19 needs requires the US to pull another rabbit out of its hat. Period. Flash Sale Should You Buy IHG Points with a 100% Bonus? Some old-school pilots might still recollect handling issues, but my experience is that many new-school pilots will not have realized some of the fall-out. Its an entirely different kind of flying altogether. Cloudflare Ray ID: 76a0c45c1d64921f Notably, the airline was the first to deploy the model to the world's largest desert, operating a . In October 2018, Lion Air Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea shortly after departing Jakarta, Indonesia. So they are at a disadvantage that should be recognized. Calling the 737-MAX flawed is an understatement, and a semantic dodge. InsideFlyer.co.uk [English] United Kingdom, British Airways is Offering a Double Avios Promotion, Iberia Switches to Avios per Euro Spent Earning British Airways to Follow. These software patch solutions might, in fact, be doable with modern technology but the issue needs to be thrashed out by healthy debate and design requirements stipulated so that the sort of sophomorically half-baked engineering errors Boeing demonstrated with the MCAS are not repeated. If a customer prefers to not fly on this aircraft, well provide flexibility to ensure they can be easily re-accommodated.. Runway Girl Network uses cookies. We know that after the FAA reviewed the design specs, Boeing gave the system more stab trim authority to the extent that it could roll in full nose-down trim. Performance & security by Cloudflare. Let me add a little detail. The Indonesian NTSB determined that blame for their accident shared equal blame between the pilots, mechanics and Boeing. Plus, as the blog points out, no one in either maintenance nor the crash crew knew there was a thing called MCAS on board. I am insulted when commentators have the gumption to say this Max accident would never happen to an American pilot. Would you be happy to fly in a 737 MAX in future? While infrequent travelers may not pay much attention to the aircraft type theyre scheduled to fly on, a percentage of those who do pay attention including some frequent flyers will refuse to fly on the MAX and will actively book around it. "The two dozen 737 MAX aircraft in the American Airlines fleet are the only ones equipped with two AOA displays, one for each pilot, providing an extra layer of awareness and warning." I took a flight on an AeroMexico Boeing 737 MAX8. Get 5 Bonus Cashback On Your Weekly Shop (+10 More For New TopCashback Members! Plane and Pilot builds on more than 50 years of serving pilots and owners of aircraft with the goal of empowering our readers to improve their knowledge and enthusiasm for aviation. Across the globe. I instructed ATPs for several years and also flew the line. All Boeing 737 Max aircraft have been on the ground for over a year and a half, as a result of two tragic crashes which killed 346 people. MCAS will activate just once, not repeatedly, and its incapable of applying full nose-down trim. A quick fix is worse than none at all. Our customers will be able to easily identify whether they are traveling on one even if schedules change. They didnt touch or diagnose the faulty AoA because they had no reason to suspect it was faulty. And it will work. Earn 22,000 points with the Amex Gold card. Bells, horns, stick-shakers are warnings of impending problems or sometimes not. They reported the malfunction and maintenance techs failed to diagnose it correctly and thus failed to fix it, setting up the accident scenario. W ould you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 today? Sure, we should keep doing vintage aircraft demos. Here in the United States, the FAA has not done that. Personally, I reject this reasoning. So an aircraft with an out-of-service lavatory (clearly a flaw) is an unsafe aircraft?. I agree with you. Flight history for aircraft - D-AMAZ. Should no one outside the U.S. drive a Ford, or use a Black & Decker power tool? I think that there are cultural differences in how people will approach machinery. And we know a congressional investigation found grossly insufficient oversight by the FAA. The A350 is a beautifully-designed aircraft with success written all over it. These widebody twinjets arrived at the airline in the early 90s and range between 32 and 29 years of age. Now, MAX operators will have to install new flight control computer software, as well as updated cockpit display system software that effectively compares input from two angle of attack sensors as opposed to one. Do you trust that the FAA is making this decision based on evidence that software problems Thats what I call 95th percentile confidence, not the 10-9 reliability we strive to build into the modern air transport system. (With A Little Help From Part Pay With Avios), Up to 7,000 bonus Avios with the BA Amex this summer. Now Ill admit that this kind of polling is to science as a Cracker Barrel is to cuisineor even edible food. "Did we avoid the 787, 747 and 777 when there were issues?" asked Christine W. "I recall an issue where an Airbus was grounded due to a crash and everyone flies it [today]. Echoing the sentiments of others, an engineer on LinkedIn said: I will not feel 100% comfortable flying on it until it has passed at least two years without other reported incidents. Due to Boeing, the FAA, MCAS, etc., potential passengers have wisely developed some trust issues. ago Hell no. Why did I think that? When you at an airport look at the gear differences on the 737 and the A320. As an example, modern jets have three pitot tubes, three Air Data Computers, three autopilots, etc. Events proved otherwise. Since so many airlines have ordered the MAX, it is likely you and I will be scheduled to fly on one sooner rather than later. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Given the two recent deadly 737 Max 8 crashes in a span of five months (Lion Air last fall and Ethiopian Airlines this month) and the subsequent global grounding of all of Boeing's 737 Max fleet, you can understand why passengers are rethinking their travel plans to the point that Southwest Airlines, which only flies Boeing 737s, reported . It was a roof with a small leak waiting for a heavy enough rainstorm. Travel analyst Henry Harteveldt asked a similar question of his Twitter followers on 18 November, after FAA Administrator Steve Dickson formally signed the order(PDF) that paves the way for the MAX to return to commercial service once key design changes are made and training requirements are met. Nearly one in five of them said they wouldn't fly it, either. But designers have tried to and have largely succeeded in not making them into flying puzzle palaces larded up with gotchas. Even if the software problem has been corrected and a second sensor added, the basic design of the aircraft may be flawed. Should You Buy Marriott Points With A 25% Discount? And as an aside, can I point out that a triple autopilot, no-pilot AC would have come to the same end as the failed crews did. TYPE CODE B38M. Of the 3,231 Twitter users who voted, a total 60.4% said yes, theyd be comfortable flying the MAX, while 39.6% said no. Airline pilots who fly and understand the systems logic of their airplanes understand mechanical faults and how they will jump out at the worst time. We need to have a full and thorogh debate about this question and not allow the FAA to sweep it under the carpet. If a customer doesnt want to fly on the 737 MAX, they wont have to. I think this is dangerous. Or just maybe, theres a lot wrong with the pilot. Would You Fly In A Boeing 737 MAX When It Has Been Approved By Regulators. In what is another major blow to the certifications of the Boeing 737 MAX 7 the U.S. government watchdog will evaluate the Federal Aviation Administration's oversight of the aircraft program. MCAS can be triggered by single erroneous Angle of Attack event. It would be interesting to find out who might have built or overhauled the first failed Lion Air AOA as well as who might have built or overhauled the AOA installed on the Ethiopian MAX. They reported the malfunction and maintenance techs failed to diagnose it correctly and thus failed to fix it, setting up the accident scenario.. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); WORLD'S PREMIER INDEPENDENT AVIATION NEWS RESOURCE. Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8 today? Yes. Hilton offering status matches for 2016, including to Diamond! The gap between a flawed and an unsafe aircraft is a distinction without a difference. A Boeing 737 MAX jet heads to a landing at Boeing Field following a test flight Monday, June 29, 2020, in Seattle. - it depends on the programme: With British Airways Executive Club changing the way Avios is earned, what are your alternatives? Smartwings this week landed one of its Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Antarctica.Registration OK-SWA touched town at Troll Research Station on November 11th after a multi-stop trip from Europe. Required fields are marked *. AIRLINE TUI. Americas owner-flown aircraft enthusiasts and active-pilot resource, delivered to your inbox! Southwest and American fly the 737 Max 8. No way. Maybe it has happened, but I am not aware of a runaway trim system going full nose up then reversing itself going full nose down. As an example we were delayed by almost an hour because the pilot communication system was cutting in and out; the flight attendant says this is a . But none of us were there in either crash aircraft. Using the results, we will try to understand whether people are willing to board the 737 MAX right away, Specifically, the new version of MCAS is driven by both AoA sensors and locked out if they disagree by more than 5.5 degrees. Yes. In fact, the current fix for the MAX (now rebranded as the 737-8) ignores (among other things) the engineering principle of critical triangles of agreement; critical systems must have three inputs with a comparator routine to identify and disregard the outlier. Heathrow Airport Has Lifted The Passenger Cap But It Could Return At Christmas. So I had my flight on a 737 Max and while the plane had some great bells and whistles like tech related amenities and a more comfortable cabin the flight crew says it was engineered very poorly. The company has 500 airframes made and 3000 on order; it seems to be assuming that all will be fine . But 346 people died in two crashes and these oversights aligned to produce the biggest catastrophe in Boeings history. The publicity has been worldwide and almost everybody knows about this aircraft and it's faults. To the original question, why did I say yes, Id fly in the MAX? Even if the 737-MAX is safe, what about the rest of Boeings fleet? This is the type of plane. Federal regulators on Monday, Aug. 3, 2020 outlined a list of design changes they will require in the Boeing 737 Max to fix safety issues that were discovered after two deadly crashes that led to the worldwide grounding of the plane. Click to reveal By your reasoning, no aircraft can be safe, because since nothing is perfect all aircraft include flaws. How do I know what I think I know and is it a rational, reasonable conclusion? Code X3 / TUI. Am I the only retired Boeing captain who remembers being taught during the 707 ground school, that the best way to stop a runaway stab was either to grab the co-pilots thigh and clamp it to the right hand stab trim wheel until his trousers caught fire (almost a joke but it worked! The Max is the opposite. On the flip side, many individuals who express full confidence in the MAX note that the MAX will hold the distinction of being one of the most heavily scrutinized airliners in history when it takes to the skies again. To this, 42% of responses said they will wait at least 6 months before flying the type, with 58% saying they'll hold off for over a year. HUGE New Refer A Friend Bonus From TopCashback! In any case, as far as we know, no U.S. crew was ever tested with an MCAS abnormal. That is out and out racist Remember corporations are first responsible to their shareholders not their workers or spending on safety. As of Tuesday morning, some 25 percent of respondents said they wouldn't fly a MAX. As of Tuesday morning, some 25 percent of respondents said they wouldnt fly a MAX. At InsideFlyer, you can find "everything you ever wanted to know about frequent flyer miles, but were afraid to ask" - and if you can't find it, there is no need to be afraid to ask. InsideFlyer exists to bring all types of travelers together and to make it easier to find relevant travel advice and information within a friendly environment. NO. In March 2019, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 crashed shortly after departing Nairobi, Kenya. Is Manchester Really The Worst Airport In The UK? Some links to products and partners on this website will earn an affiliate commission. 2022 Madavor Media, LLC. I usually write the weekly AVweb poll early on Sunday morning, sometimes before the caffeine jolt has fully engaged. Capacity is unlikely to be problem for the next year or two. RIO DE JANEIRO - Commercial flights with Boeing 737 Max jetliners resumed Wednesday for the first time since they were grounded worldwide nearly two years ago following two deadly accidents . Except it's not really. To me, how do you fail to diagnose a system you dont know is there? Once again, I can hear the choir singing, if I were there, I would. They couldnt report AoA disagree because the aircraft didnt have that capability. With the recertification flights for the 737 MAX now complete, Boeing is faced with the next hurdle: passenger confidence. But the MCAS misfire didnt present as runaway trim because it was intermittent, there was no evidence that it was active and the pilots didnt even know it existed. November 11, 2022. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. Just that one of them is wrong, and MCAS should not be activated. The FAA has, by their RTS approval, tacitly signaled that software patches for instability defects are now OK. If you assume the machine knows better the operator you wont be able to stop it before the situation gets out of control. Its new, efficient engines also offer a 40% smaller noise . 3. MODE S 3C743A. In recent months there have been a series of test flights of the 737 Max, following modifications designed to fix the previous issues. Would you fly on a 737 MAX in the next year, assuming the airline, fare, and schedule are acceptable? As the story matured, a conceit emerged. While I share the hope for better weather in 2021, it wont happen without greater diligence and vigilance in all walks of life. Because I flew in it before the fix, on one of Southwests factory-fresh MAXes that the flight attendant thought was on its second or third revenue flight. All rights reserved. The FAA ungrounding directives retain MCAS, but with several modifications. As pointed out, the MCAS response with intermittent not a trim runaway that defines itself by getting worse in a very progressive but predictable way. We know that restoring our customers confidence in this aircraft will come with time and importantly, transparency and flexibility, said American Airlines chief operating officer David Seymour in a message to the carriers employees. So Why Would You Fly A 737 MAX? When I was constructing the poll, I also segregated the same question limited to airline pilots. The gap between a flawed and an unsafe aircraft is a distinction without a difference., Really? Essentially the same thing worked for the 727 and 737s. In a truly safe system, youre supposed to do both. OPERATOR TUI fly. Maybe sometime in the future after a few thousand more souls have already been used as paying guinea pigs including American pilots. But the results of his poll are nonetheless worth highlighting. Later in the day, I come back to it and test the poll plumbing by making my own selection. Tests have been ongoing ever since, and the EASA, the European aviation authority, has now determined that the aircraft is safe to fly again. Of the 651 respondents to his poll, 53.6% said 'yes', 37.3% said 'no', and the remaining 9.1% ticked the box for 'I don't know'. Airline pilots Ive asked about this say, yeah, a U.S. crew could probably have resolved it. What are the fees for changing or cancelling an airline award booking? So far, all I am hearing isthis time fer sure. InsideFlyer.co.uk [English] United Kingdom InsideFlyer.de [German] Germany InsideFlyer.com [English] United States InsideFlyer.no [Norwegian] Norway InsideFlyer.se [Swedish] Sweden InsideFlyer.dk [Danish] Denmark InsideFlyer.nl [Dutch] Benelux. Boeing put those pilots into situations where they became test pilots, with a couple hundred passengers in the back. But two of the three developing-world crews who were tested failed. Would you fly on the newly certificated 737 Max on Day One of reintroduction?